Saturday, September 17, 2005

Feeding off Each Other

Roora has been explaining the position of women in Islam here and here.

What I found interesting were the comments by a blogger calling himself/herself Flanstein. Not because of the usual touching concern about us poor Muslim women who are unable to leave our houses without a male escort etc....That gets a bit tedious after the first 100 times you come across it. And I do so dislike people who lack originality.

No what fascinates me is the way people like Flanstein - clearly extremists - seem to quote the same interpretation of Islam that Islamic extremists use. Basically the case this Flanstein presents & fondly believes is against Islam is the same case that you would find presented on Wahabi/Salafi & other Jihadi websites as true Islam.

Very interesting this symbiotic relationship between Islamic extremists & Islamophobic extremists. Without ideologies like Flanstein's, Islamic extremists would not be able to sell their Zionists-and-Crusaders-out-to-get-Islam conspiracy theories in the Muslim world. And without Islamic extremists & their propaganda people like Flanstein would not be able to sell their Islam-has-no-redeeming-qualities-and-Muslims-should-all-convert-or-die propaganda. Ultimately they are both essential to each other's survival. Literally feeding off each other.

But could this phenomenon actually have positive results?Maybe if 'our' fanatics & 'their' fanatics debate peacefully on the web this will cause them both to become more moderate?When presented with the mirror image of your own intolerance in reverse you might clash at first but eventually both sides would exhaust their fighting energy & begin to seek compromises or at least begin to accept that the other exists & isn't going anywhere.

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45 Comments:

Blogger haal said...

GOod reflection Loul.

9/18/2005 06:07:00 AM  
Blogger Me said...

Mmmmmmmm ... thought provoking...

9/18/2005 08:07:00 PM  
Blogger Jane said...

Loulou,
In my blog reading I have come across extremists of all sorts. Some are actually quite scary. My knowledge of Islam is quite small but I don't allow myself to buy into any stereotype or to make any assumptions about something I know so little about. I suspect that many of the anti-Muslims out there know as little as I do but are either in denial of their ignorance or just afraid of what they do not understand. As far as a debate between an extreme anti-Muslim and and a Muslim extremist goes, hmmm...now that would be interesting to witness. But I am doubtful that it would create any real change. Extremists of all kinds like the sound of their own voices the most and seldom listen to any one other than themselves.

9/19/2005 07:00:00 AM  
Blogger LouLou said...

Jane,

I agree that there is certainly no place for a moderate in this debate if it were to take place. For one thing it would be so mind-numbingly boring. Where would you get the attention-span?Ideologues are so repetitive, so indoctrinated & so incapable of independent or original thought. Not to mention that they take themselves & their little ideological sandbox so seriously & tend to lack all humor.

But it would be interesting to see what the outcome would be. World War 3?Or an eventual meeting of the minds.

9/19/2005 09:26:00 AM  
Blogger Flanstein said...

I had to laugh at your extremist label. That I only want muslims to stop killing innocent people around the world and to stop shouting "allah akbar" when they do it doesn't seem extremist to me.


But given that much of the muslim world idolizes OBL and hates Jews as a reflex, anytime someone shines a light of reality onto your belief system could be misconstrued as extremism.

If you can find a falsehood on my site that I have initiated - I will remove it.


http://flanstein.blogspot.com

9/19/2005 03:50:00 PM  
Blogger LouLou said...

Flanstein,

What I've seen from your comments in other blogs so far hasn't tempted me to read your website. With so many interesting blogs out there why would I bother?

"That I only want muslims to stop killing innocent people around the world and to stop shouting "allah akbar" when they do it doesn't seem extremist to me."

That kind of sweeping statement may satisfy your obvious flair for drama but it adds nothing to your credibility. Again there are 2(or fine 1.2 or 1.4 billion) Muslims in the world. How many of them have killed anyone?The way you keep repeating Muslims did or Muslims didn't is enough of a falsehood because you're not going to convince me that you have evidence on your site to the criminality of 'Muslims' as a whole.

If you must know the truth I only called you an extremist to be polite. Anyone who goes around frothing at the mouth & yelling Murderer! at billions of people he's never met who've never done anything to him qualifies as an extremist in my book. It is exactly Bin Laden's mentality. Complete & utter villification of the Other.

Have always thought Bin Laden was rather deranged.

9/19/2005 05:12:00 PM  
Blogger Flanstein said...

You've never been to my blog but you "know" I'm an extremist? Please...

Abdel Rahman al-Rashed, a Saudi journalist in London said: “It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists,” he writes, “but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims. We cannot clear our names unless we own up to the shameful fact that terrorism has become an Islamic enterprise; an almost exclusive monopoly, implemented by Muslim men and women.”

9/19/2005 05:13:00 PM  
Blogger LouLou said...

"You've never been to my blog but you "know" I'm an extremist? Please..."

I doubt the quality of material on your blog is an improvement on what you write in your comments.

Abdul Rahman AlRashid is a respected journalist who knows how to do self-criticism of his own society & culture instead of the navel-worship & cheap mass villification of others that you delight in.

Am glad you read Abdul Rahman Rashid. Maybe you'll learn something.

9/19/2005 05:21:00 PM  
Blogger LouLou said...

Oh and since you so much admire this statement. Let's look at it again shall we?


"It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists,” he writes, “but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims."

So why is that?Why aren't all Muslims terrorists?

If we were all terrorists you'd have over a billion suicide bombers on your hands. So how come you don't?

9/19/2005 05:26:00 PM  
Blogger Flanstein said...

No one ever said that all muslims were terrorists. But since even you have admitted that most (all?) terrorists are muslims, doesn't that register with you that there is a problem in the ummah? I'm simply highlighting what that problem is and how it might be solved.

Let me ask you two simple questions:

Who was responsible for 9/11?

Do you think that Catholic churches should be allowed to be built in Saudi Arabia?

9/19/2005 08:35:00 PM  
Blogger LouLou said...

"But since even you have admitted that most (all?) terrorists are muslims, doesn't that register with you that there is a problem in the ummah?"

No one ever said that there were not a lot of problems in the Umma. But that's not your message. That's Abdul Rahman AlRashid's message.

YOUR message is that all followers of Islam are murderers & oppressors if not oppressed.That's not saying we have problems. That's going a lot further than that. And on this blog at least you don't make grandiose claims like that unless you can back them up. Not if you expect anyone to take you seriously.

"Do you think that Catholic churches should be allowed to be built in Saudi Arabia?"

Yes I do. But I don't happen to have any influence over the Saudi government. Probably its supporters in the West especially in America have a lot more pull with the House of Saud than me.

Churches do exist in many Muslim countries. Some dating back hundreds of years. And your point is?

9/19/2005 09:33:00 PM  
Blogger Flanstein said...

"YOUR message is that all followers of Islam are murderers & oppressors if not oppressed."

See, if you went to my blog, you would know I have never said that. What I HAVE said is that islam, as it is currently practised, is a threat to civilization and modernity as we know it.

It is a threat because muslims, with no central religious authority, are interpreting the koran in many different ways.

Torturing children, blowing up grannies and BBQing tourists are routinely justified by passages from your "holy book". Just like diminishing the rights of women in islamic countries, all of these things allegedly came from the lips of your "god":

"And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it and do not break your oath;" Q. 38:44

"The prophet gave permission to kill children and women in war" (Bukhari, Jihad/146; Ebu Davud 113).

"O Prophet! make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate." Q. 66:9

"I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, maim them in every limb." Q. 8:12

"And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah." Q. 2:193

p.s I noticed you didn't answer my question about 9/11...

9/19/2005 10:03:00 PM  
Blogger Alina said...

What, Lou, you mean you actually can get out of your house by your self???And us Eastern Europeans aren't all dirty and illiterate and wouldn't freak out when seeing a TV???C'mon, don't break all the cliches in the world! Let Flanstestein think he's a good guy and the rest are the bad guys! Give him a chance! :)

9/19/2005 11:21:00 PM  
Blogger LouLou said...

"I noticed you didn't answer my question about 9/11... "

I thought that was rhetorical. As far as I know several AlQaeda videos on AlJazeera claimed responsibility for 9/11.

"What I HAVE said is that islam, as it is currently practised, is a threat to civilization and modernity as we know it."

There you go generalizing again. Islam as is currently practised by WHO?Are you telling me the way I practice my religion is a threat to civilization?Is roora a threat to civilization?Can you ever talk specifics?

You've admitted yourself that Islam is not & has never been a monolithic religion. There's no church & no clergy & no Pope.Anyone can issue a fatwa & it wouldn't be binding to anyone who didn't happen to agree with it.

Since the Prophet died & the Sunni-Shia divide happened back in the 7th century there hasn't been one single universal interpretation of Islam.

Islam is just the vocabulary, the language that Muslims speak. It basically says whatever you want it to say.Good people, bad people, psychos everyone here expresses themselves in religious terms the same way you speak English or French.

Have met a lot of Muslims whose beliefs had less in common with mine than a Christian's or a Jew's and yet they expressed their beliefs using the same language, the same terminology & the same reference points.

This is why you end up looking so ridiculous when you tell a Muslim what he or she believes. How could you possibly know?

Given these facts why do you insist on alienating all of us by attacking the word Islam when your problem is infact with some sect of Islam?Why can't you say Salafism or Wahabism or Bin Ladenism or even Jihadism - these are the terms the general Muslim public uses to refer to the sect of Islam that is behind Islamic extremism today.

9/20/2005 01:01:00 AM  
Blogger LouLou said...

Kayla,

He has a chance. He has a whole blog to talk about what a good guy he is & what bad guys we all are. But it wasn't enough for him. He had to go out to other blogs & spread the message.:)

9/20/2005 01:03:00 AM  
Blogger LouLou said...

"Torturing children, blowing up grannies and BBQing tourists are routinely justified by passages from your "holy book". "

Torturing children again. Sigh.
If someone goes around torturing children Flanstein does it really matter how they justify it?

9/20/2005 01:13:00 AM  
Blogger Flanstein said...

"Islam is just the vocabulary, the language that Muslims speak. It basically says whatever you want it to say."

Exactly my point. Which is why it is such a threat to civilization. Over a billion people on this earth are automotons for a belief system, that in your words says "whatever you want it to say."

Well, many of your co-religionists have done these things based on that exact creed:


Airplanes full of humans are hijacked and crashed into skyscrapers full of humans, hotels are bombed, 12 year old children’s birthday parties are blown up, bus loads of children are massacred. Who were the culprits? Muslims...

Your co-religionists executed thousands during the miss world riot while asking some of the victims to recite passages out of the koran. If they could not comply, they were butchered on the spot. The targeting, torture and massacre of schoolchildren in Russia by your fellow Muslims was perhaps the most barbarous act in 2004.

Then of course there is the massacre in N.Y. (wildly celebrated in muslim countries), the hundreds of infidels BBQ'd in Bali and hundreds more executed in Madrid. When your religious leaders heard about the bombings in London, they referred to the protagonists of death as the “fantastic Four”. Let’s not forget all the innocent people your friends beheaded on video (shouting alla akbar) while they danced around in joy.

All the while your co-religionists kill more dogs, beat more women, destroy more ancient artifacts and incinerate more Kenyan dancers.

And you think I'm an extremist? I'm not an American, I despise Bush and am against the war in Iraq. I'm probably more liberal than you are on social issues.

However, unless muslims can get a grip on their co-religionists that see me as someone to kill or convert, then a real battle of civilization will take place - a battle that will be very unkind to muslims. And as someone who abhors violence, THAT scares the hell out of me.

9/20/2005 02:28:00 AM  
Blogger zoss said...

flanstein; Goes without saying that you can ascribe to any ideology you care for; and even though, admittedly, I don't have loulou's dedication and willingness to give of dear time to dissect your arguments one by one, I'm still willing to hear you out, and dedicate enough time to think about any good points you raise. That is, untill you start quoting selectively (and quite incoherently) from (some translation of) the Quran. This doesn't help your arguments at all. You've just provided a glaring example of the original point of the post: you're using these verses to justify your attack on islam, while "they" are using an overlapping set of verses (in almost exactly the same superficial manner) to justify what they do in the name of islam. Is it really that hard to see?

I must say you've upped it a notch though when you quoted this translation of verse [Q.38:44]: "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it and do not break your oath;"
what is this an argument for, or against? Do you even know the context?

(I have to repeat that this is not really criticizing you, but it's pointing out, what seems to me, a glaring flaw with this way of discussing these issues.)

9/20/2005 09:15:00 AM  
Blogger LouLou said...

"However, unless muslims can get a grip on their co-religionists that see me as someone to kill or convert, then a real battle of civilization will take place"

Like most Muslims, this doesn't impress me at all. If you're not with us you're against us even if you are an innocent person who is not part of the conflict. And Bin Laden says exactly the same thing in reverse.

It was the British who installed Abdul Wahab & the House of Saud over Saudi Arabia over all that oil.

Without Saudi petrodollars Wahabism would have remained an obscure sect in the Saudi desert instead of a world-wide movement eventually shrivelling up & dying. Hundreds of sects have risen & fallen in the history of Islam. What determined their rise & fall were usually the politics of the ruling elite of the time. They were the ones who chose to propagate one sect & suppress others.

Wahabism simply benefited from Saudi oil & the Cold War - opening mosques & madrassa all over the world, suppressing the older & bigger & more established sects, slaughtering Shia & Sufis etc...attempting to insure that an entire generation grows up exposed to nothing other than Wahabism. This was successful in various degrees based on a given country's involvement in the Cold War. Anti-Soviet regimes indulged Wahabism because it was useful against the Communists.

All this with the help of the West & its client regimes in the region.

And the West continued to support & prop-up the House of Saud & other unpleasant Middle Eastern dictatorships while they did all this - among their other undemocratic inhumane practices. The Sauds continue to be your bosom buddies until today.

Not content with that, the West decided to get more directly involved during the Afghan War actually arming the Mujahideen & training them. Were they being nice & kind to the Afghan people back then?Were they feminists when they were your heros?When Reagan was praising them as 'freedom fighters' & comparing them to the Founding Fathers back in the 80's?

Isn't it a fact that until Sept 11, various Wahabi groups were free to operate in most Western capitals, fund-raising, recruiting, spreading their ideology, their members being granted political asylum despite having committed atrocities in their home countries & being wanted by their governments?

So Islamic terrorism was just fine with you guys when it served your geopolitical interests & killed Communists or when it was only slaughtering Egyptians or Algerians or Indians or Afghans? But when it starts killing white Americans or white Western tourists then everything changes & all of a sudden you remember your moral high ground & get on a pulpit & start preaching to us about how we're the ones who should be ashamed of our so-called 'co-religionists' - your former political allies who you helped to oppress & intimidate & murder us?

So you arm & support them, they kill us & then when your Cold War chickens come home to roost they're our problem & we have to stop them?How exactly do you suggest that we stop them?What makes you think they'll listen to us?

9/20/2005 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger LouLou said...

Zoss,


Do you have any thoughts on how we can stop Islamic terrorism?Flanstein is the second person on the blogosphere to threaten us all with certain death if we don't, you know.

How do you think you or I can influence the Zarqawis of this world?

9/20/2005 09:24:00 AM  
Blogger LouLou said...

"and even though, admittedly, I don't have loulou's dedication and willingness to give of dear time to dissect your arguments one by one,"

Exactly. And Loulou really has to get back to work now with equal dedication or she's going to get fired:)

9/20/2005 09:26:00 AM  
Blogger Flanstein said...

"It was the British who installed Abdul Wahab & the House of Saud over Saudi Arabia over all that oil."

I new it wouldn't take long before your argument devolved into the usual excuse: "it's your fault we're killing you strategy"

"Do you have any thoughts on how we can stop Islamic terrorism?Flanstein is the second person on the blogosphere to threaten us all with certain death if we don't, you know."

Firstly, I'm not threatening anyone, civilization is the victim - not islam. And yea, there is something every "moderate" muslim CAN do:

1. Stop hatiing Jews. When you see anti-semitism broadcast on your local media (and the Jew-hatred seems to be rampant in the islamic world) complain. The only way change can happen is if good people make it happen

2. The next time someone walks by you in an OBL t-shirt, challenge them.

3. Ask yourself these questions: is there anything in my religion that has led us to this juncture? If I can admit that some things might be misinterpreted, what can I do about it?

I hear the most appalling things coming from the mouths of clerics in the islamic world - and they are met with silence from so-called "moderates"...

9/20/2005 02:25:00 PM  
Blogger LouLou said...

Flanstein,

"Firstly, I'm not threatening anyone, civilization is the victim - not islam."

Anytime innocent people are threatened or murdered they're victims even if they happen to be Muslims. Only a racist would deny that.Civilizations don't bleed & don't die. People do.

"I new it wouldn't take long before your argument devolved into the usual excuse: "it's your fault we're killing you strategy""

And I knew you were not the type to take responsibility for anything. The West has always wanted power but not responsibility. You like to meddle in other people's affairs, take sides in wars, arm this side or that, topple this regime or that, play all your little power games. House, fund & protect terrorists.

But when things go wrong you don't want to bear your share of the blame.

Fine. But while you take that attitude don't be surprised if people don't choose to listen to you when you blame them.

If you don't have the guts to criticize your own governments for recognizing & supporting the founders & perpetrators of Wahabism in its birthplace why do you expect me to go out of my way or risk my life to challenge complete maniacs who'd just as soon kill me as look at me?

"The next time someone walks by you in an OBL t-shirt, challenge them."

LOL...would just love to see someone walking in an OBL t-shirt in Dubai:)

"I hear the most appalling things coming from the mouths of clerics in the islamic world - and they are met with silence from so-called "moderates"..."

Maybe you just choose to ignore the moderates & listen to nutcases because they're better tabloid material?

As for complaining to the government-owned local media do you think they have a viewer's comment section?And when I challenge the media that transmists the government's official positions are you going to protect me from being jailed or deported?

9/20/2005 02:42:00 PM  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Loulou, khody nafasek tayeb. Frankstein's arguments are not worth all this!

9/20/2005 02:59:00 PM  
Blogger LouLou said...

Mohamed,

Yes I guess we've reached a dead end here.

But you wait til I get my breath back. So women don't know what they want huh?

9/20/2005 03:12:00 PM  
Blogger Flanstein said...

You are correct, we have reached the end. When muslims start blaming the victims of islamic butchery, then we know there is nothing left to say...

9/20/2005 05:34:00 PM  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Yeah Loulou, they have no clue!

9/20/2005 06:20:00 PM  
Blogger LouLou said...

Flanstein,

Oh eternal victims of your type will always have plenty to say. The question is do I have to listen?

You're obviously not interested in anything other than feeding your own paranoia & feeling sorry for yourself. Added to which I always start yawning when grown adults start all this oh poor me victim boohoo stuff. You don't need my help to do that.Enjoy!

9/20/2005 08:31:00 PM  
Blogger tota said...

WTG LouLou

9/21/2005 12:19:00 AM  
Blogger Flanstein said...

"Added to which I always start yawning"

Tell that to the parents at Beslan...

9/21/2005 02:49:00 AM  
Blogger LouLou said...

"Tell that to the parents at Beslan..."

Emotional blackmail Mr.Flanstein?Why am I not surprised?

Did wonder how long it would be before you're reduced to such cheap, immature tactics.Preying on other people's tragedies to disguise your bigotry & your inability to deal in facts.

You are not a parent at Beslan & I was not involved in the incident. Neither are over a billion Muslims you can't disguise your unprovoked hatred & contempt for.

9/21/2005 04:02:00 AM  
Blogger Flanstein said...

Your co-religionists tortured and executed children and they used your "holy book" as justification. The only outrage that came from the muslim world, aside from some mild mutterrings, was at folks like me who have pointed it out.

Many of us in the west have become intolerant of islamic intolerance. Does that make us bigots?

"Mohammed dealt with the Jews by taking the men, ten at a time, marching them into a trench and killing them. The women were all taken as captives, and only the male children were spared death. That is how Mohammed dealt with the Jews, and that is how you, Muslim, must deal with them. This is what you must do to be a Muslim."

Abu Hamza Al Masri,

9/21/2005 03:46:00 PM  
Blogger LouLou said...

"Does that make us bigots?"

Attempting to guilt trip me about something that happened at the other end of the world just because am a Muslim makes you a bigot. You don't hate me for anything I did. You hate me because of who I am. Just like the Nazis hated the Jews.

I have never even been to Russia or met a Chechen & you want to blame me for Beslan?What rubbish!

And you can call them my co-religionists until you're blue in the face. Religion is a belief. If their beliefs are different from mine then they're not my co-religionists & I don't identify with them anymore than I would with a Hindu or Buddhist. Or with you for that matter. I don't care if they call themselves Muslims. Muslim has always meant way too many religions. Just because you can't tell us apart doesn't mean we're all the same.

9/21/2005 08:08:00 PM  
Blogger Flanstein said...

"I have never even been to Russia or met a Chechen & you want to blame me for Beslan?"


I don't blame you - I blame islam and the evil precepts of your "faith system". Perhaps your fellow muslims read this and thought it was OK to torture children:

"Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191)

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and genitals cut off, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)

"Not to make friendship with Jews and Christians" (Koran 5:51)

"Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them." (Koran, 8:12)

"In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Koran, 8:37)

"If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them [infidels]" (Koran 8:65).

Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (Koran 9:3)

"Fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Koran 9:5)

Our God tells us to "fight the unbelievers" and "He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them" (Koran 9:14).

"Until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Koran 9:29)

"Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place" (9:39).

"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)

"Murder them and treat them harshly" (Koran 9:123)

"When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:40)

"When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet sin. So that Allah's word is proven true against them, then we destroy them utterly." (Koran, 17:16-17)

"How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their sins, setting up in their place other peoples." (Koran, 21:11)

"strike off the heads of the disbelievers" (Koran 47:4)

"Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin." (Koran 69:30-37)

"You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' " (Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177)

The Prophet killed the men of the Jewish tribe Bani Quraiza (some 600 to 800 of them) and distributed their women, children and property among the Muslims All the other Jews of Medina were exiled. (Bukhari 5:59:362)

The Prophet had the date-palms of the Jewish tribe of Bani-Al- Nadir burnt and cut down. "It was with Allah's permission" (Koran 59:5)

The Prophet said to Sa'd, :The Bani Quraiza have agreed to accept your verdict" Sa'd said, "Kill all their men and take their women and children as slaves" The Prophet replied, "You have judged according to God's Judgment" (Bukhari 5:59:447)

9/21/2005 10:57:00 PM  
Blogger LouLou said...

Flanstein,

Quoting verses from the Qura'an with dubious translations & interpretations & out of context is precisely what the Bin Ladenists do.Which brings us back to the point of this post in the first place.

It is a useless exercise because it is quite a simple matter for me to find you verses & hadiths that mean the exact opposite of the ones you posted. Or to simply quote 2 or 3 verses after or 2 or 3 verses before each of the ones you posted.

Why is it that billions of people follow Islam & yet don't feel compelled to kill anyone?Because they never read the Qura'an?No because the sciences of deriving Islamic rulings are a lot more complex than finding a verse here or half a hadith there & yelling Eureka! this is lawful or unlawful. You can't take a verse out of the Qura'an without considering other verses on the same subject that may place limitations on it, its historical context, linguistics & the consensus of the community among many other factors.We don't have Islamic rulings derived from one verse or from half a verse. It would make no sense when you can find two verses or hadiths meaning the opposite of each other on virtually everything.

If someone doesn't realize it or realizes but chooses to manipulate others by telling only little bits of the story that reflect their point of view then that's their problem not mine.

And again isn't that what you're doing?Selectively quoting & falsely generalizing to manipulate those who read you & may know less than you?The only difference I see is that you do it to incite hatred of Muslims & they do it to incite hatred of non-Muslims. Both of you are certainly not on the side of peace or reconciliation or the universal brotherhood of Man and both of you use disinformation & half-truth. Like I said it's an interesting phenomenon.

9/22/2005 08:58:00 AM  
Blogger Flanstein said...

Interpretation is merely reflecting the Qur'anic imperative enshrined in Sura 9:29 for Jews and Christians: conversion to Islam, subjugation as an inferior class, or death. "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

And this, of course, is not a single verse "taken out of context," but the linchpin of an entire system that plays out in the Hadith, Islamic law, and Islamic history. Your Prophet Muhammad amplifies these choices here:

Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war.When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them.

If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah’s help and fight them. (Sahih Muslim 4294)

Islam, religion of death, pain and suffering...

9/22/2005 05:49:00 PM  
Blogger LouLou said...

Flanstein,

Jews & Christians living in an Islamic state did have to pay taxes in exchange for not doing military service. Muslims also had to pay several types of taxes which you will always find mentioned all over the Qura'an. The payment of these taxes is the third pillar of faith for Muslims.

After the death of the Prophet Abu Bakir - the second Caliph - fought several Muslim tribes who decided to with hold the paying of zakat. No state can survive if its people refuse to pay taxes.

And yes you do have to accept the authority of whatever state you live in. You can't be allowed to subvert its auhtority or plot against it or conspire with its enemies. This is why you guys were so wrong to allow Islamic militant groups to function in your countries under your protection for so many years.

9/22/2005 07:19:00 PM  
Blogger LouLou said...

For those who are interested I have covered the topic of Qura'anic war
here and here .

Was going to post more about the topic from other references but was distracted & had other things on my mind for a while:)

Will do it in a some posts when I feel like it & have time to do the research.

Flanstein it's been interesting but it has gone on far too long. My advice to you is to get a life, get out more & try to become reunited with your long-lost sense of humor.

This is going to be my last word on this topic or on any topic with you for that matter.

Feel free to keep up your hate-filled spam. Am not going to delete it. And if anyone else here feels like engaging with you they're welcome to.

9/22/2005 07:23:00 PM  
Blogger Flanstein said...

We spell it humour here in Canada - and despite having to deal with the cretinous jew-haters from islam - I have never lost mine.

For example, a muslim woman recently wrote this on my blog referring to life in the west:

Why is it that at some gynecologists before a woman gets married and is going for a check up prior to marriage and is a virgin is advised to go to a psychiatrist???

The kooky muslims who believe stuff like this always make me laugh...

9/22/2005 11:53:00 PM  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Frankstein, you give a bad name to Canada man. Just like our radicals give a bad name to Islam. Just keep Canada out of your arguments.

9/23/2005 12:04:00 AM  
Blogger Flanstein said...

I give Canada a bad name because I tell the truth about islam? Is that more islamic logic?

9/23/2005 01:34:00 AM  
Blogger LouLou said...

mohamed,

Can you republish your blog?For some reason I can't see it anymore.

9/23/2005 01:41:00 AM  
Blogger Mohamed said...

No, that's Frankstein's illogic.

Do you really think you know Islam better than us?! Don't you think if you were so right, knowing it all so well as you claim to be, we would've dumped this religion long ago. Believe me, if any of what you've said makes any sense I would've dumped this religion.

But guess what, I'm not dumping it, and neither are the 1.x billion Muslims around the world. So eat your heart Frankstein.

9/23/2005 01:45:00 AM  
Blogger Flanstein said...

"Do you really think you know Islam better than us?!"

What is important for readers of this string to understand, is that my comments are not aimed at those indoctrinated into the cult of islam, but to infidels and others who are wondering what it’s all about.

Similarily, my blog is not there to convince muslims about the inherent evil of islam, but rather to inform kaffir about the threat to their lives that this belief system represents.

9/23/2005 03:53:00 AM  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Ok then, so Islam is bad for you. Hope you're happy now. Have three spoons of atheism, one spoon of Christianity and two of Judaism before you go to bed tonite and you'll feel much better.

9/23/2005 07:08:00 PM  

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