Children Follow the Father
Carmen raised the issue of interfaith marriages in Islam on her blog here and here.
In response, some of the commentators have stated that one reason that Muslim women can't marry outside the faith is that chldren follow the father's faith.
Well, I find that very interesting, given the fact that I know several families with Muslim fathers & non-Muslim mothers, where the children don't even speak the father's native tongue or know the first thing about Islam and are infact very much more into the mother's faith.
It's the MOTHER who raises the children, people, and who is naturally more influential. Most men, especially in traditional, patriarchial societies like our Muslim one, believe raising children is women's work. The husband(Tarzan) goes out to work & makes money & the mother(Jane) sits home cooking & washing & having and raising children. So what makes people so sure that the children would follow the father's faith? What exactly is the guarantee?
Personally, it was my mother who shaped our attitude to faith as we were growing up. Most of the time, it was her nagging at us to pray, eat with our right hand, say Bismallah & Alhamdullilah & Mashallah when we're supposed to. She was the one who decided when we were old enough to start fasting in Ramadan. And as a result, she was the one we went to with our faith-related questions and dilemmas.
Sure Baba would be the Imam when we'd all pray together but that was just a ritual. And while I always loved to hear him recite the Quran because he does it so beautifully with an amazing voice - it was my mother who helped me study it day after day for school. She was simply around a lot more than he was.
And my mother wasn't even a stay-at-home Mom. She is a doctor. If she didn't go out to work, I'd imagine that her influence would have been even greater.
My first memory of talking faith with my father was when I was about 14 or 15. The age at which I thought I was the smartest person in the world and knew better than everyone else & I was just beginning to question what my parents told me - as opposed to just accepting their word as Divine Wisdom. My father loves arguments & debates. So I got to know his views on faith while debating them with him - same way I'd get to know anyone else's views on anything else.
If I was ever indoctrinated or pre-disposed towards my faith, then it was definitely by my mother and not my father.
I don't know. Maybe I am letting my personal experience affect my understanding too much. Maybe it's different for everyone else. So how about it, everyone? Whose influence on your faith was greater? Your mother or your father?
Labels: Faith
posted by LouLou @ 11:09 AM
54 Comments:
I believe in most cases the mother holds a more powerful influence over the children. There are exceptions, but that is the general trend. The thing is most cultures see children as mothers' responsibility mainly. It is wrong as both parents should get involved.
I happen to believe that when the parents have different religions, the children should be acquainted to both. It is good for their understanding of different cultures and religions.
In Arab countries "Religion" is a subject taught at schools. We study religion the same way we study Maths, English, Geography... etc. Its textbooks however, teach only one point of view, which you must take as the absolute truth, or else you'll fail the exams. That's where the crisis starts. Parents usually care about teaching their kids how to pray, use God to threaten their children if they don't obey them, and, hopefully teach them ethical values through the religious oppositions of Right and Wrong. But there is no discussion of how to deal with a Holy Book or different interpretation of religious teachings. The whole philosophy of what a religion is has been lost. The result is what we ended up with nowadays.
I support interfaith marriage. At least it can teach the children the meaning of co-existence and tolerance.
LouLou:
I will go out on a limb and agree with all that you have said, 100%. I agree that the mother wields a more important influence over the kids in raising the kids...and I also see that as borderline irrelevant.
The issue is not who has a more important influence in raising the kids. The issue is who has the final determination on the big issues, such as religion. In an ideal world, parents share that responsibility. But I believe that the Koran assumes that the husband eventually has the final say. I also view this as clearly supported not only by Islamic history, but Muhammad's own history. (and lest we forget, Muhammad is supposed to be the perfect man, and the role model all Muslims look to)
Now, the husband does not always have the final determination on these issues, especially in the modern world. And perhaps, to keep with the spirit of what the Koran is trying to say, rather than the letter of what it says, a modern interpretation of the Koran should reflect this. I will agree with you there. But the letter, as opposed to the spirit, of Koranic law does appear clear.
Red Tulips,
"But I believe that the Koran assumes that the husband eventually has the final say."
No, it doesn't. If that was true then none of us would be liable for our sins. Our fathers would be.
It's not the mother or the father who has the final say, it's the children. Children don't stay children forever you see. They grow up and become adults. And then they think for themselves. You can't control their minds forever because you won't live forever.
All the parents can do is try to influence the children when they're still young & impressionable. In that, the mother usually has more influence than the father. So the argument that women should not marry outside to preserve the faith of the children makes no sense.
Think about the custody laws in Islam. The father gets custody of the children (sons at 7, daughters at 9?) What is the purpose of this? To ensure that the children get raised as proper Muslims which is the father's responsibility according to Islam.
The mother cannot be trusted with that task.
Personally, my mother or father never pushed me into faith. We went to church every Sunday, sometimes on Wednesday, but in the end, it was ultimately my decision.
I was raised Catholic, my husband is Muslim. I converted but I still believe heavily in many aspects of the faith I was raised with, and, therefore, will teach both to our child. I think it's important for any child to have a well-rounded understand of faith/religion. Being closed minded and thinking only one faith is better isn't a good idea, I don't think. But... this is coming from someone that doesn't really believe in organized religion.
You bring up another good point though about parenting, and about fathers not getting involved and leaving it up to the mother. Sadly, even tho it's left up to the mother, there are so many mothers that aren't involved and get the housemaids to do all the work. I see it on a daily basis here... which is sad really.
I'm thankful that my husband plans to be involved and we'll both take an active role in helping to bring the child up w/ a loving attitude towards all faiths... or that's my goal. And... if we were having a girl... I wouldn't see a problem w/ her marrying outside the Muslim faith. Love shouldn't be dictated.
LouLou,
I think you would be interested in this link that I found on this very subject.
As far as marrying outside the faith, it is a personal choice, and as a nonMuslim with no plans of conversion, I am not criticizing it in the slightest. The heart wants what it wants. I merely am offering what I, as a nonMuslim nonbeliever, am observing appears to be the Muslim doctrine on the subject.
In this particular issue, It has nothing to do with who has more influence, its like how the children take the father's name, inspite of the mother being the most influential part in the upbringing of the child they still carry the father's name, right?
As a result they take his religion too, they're "documented" as muslims because they were born to a muslim father, period.
How their faith shifts and whether the mother is muslim and teaches them about islam or christian and teaches them about christianity in the course of them growing up is a totaly different story.
I would agree with you to a certain extent.
My dad is muslim my mum isnt. I suppose religiously I follow my mum more than my dad - I dont really believe. But then again neither of my parents really practise religion or made a big effort that I'd follow their religions.
If you look at the cultural side of things though, its gets much more complicated!
My mom was a stay at home and definitely had more influence in my life re: my thoughts and attitudes regarding religion.
I agree with you 100%. In the end, children will grow up and choose a religion (or not) based on many different factors. The father's religious beliefs will merely be one piece of the puzzle.
Alluring,
As a result they take his religion too, they're "documented" as muslims because they were born to a muslim father, period.
That's an interesting point. In the United States, the birth certificate is filled out by the Mother, or the Mother's family. The Father has nothing to do with it, other than his name appearing in the "Father" field.
Red Tulips, I saw this on your link:
In this verse, Allah makes it clear that such a union involving a believing man and a non-believing woman, or a non-believing man and a believing woman is sure to fail and thus cannot happen.
When coming to the issue of People of the Book (i.e., Jews and Christians), it is totally different because they believe in God, which shows that there is a background shared by the man and the woman who are willing to marry.
Does this answer your questions from Sandmonkey's blog on whether Christians and Jews are considered believers or non-believers?
Did you even your own sources for your own "research" !?
LouLou, interesting post. I'd say in my case, neither my Father nor my Mother had "the most" influence on my beliefs, as my parents divorced when I was 8 and I lived with each of them at various times. I think my Father's family had the most influence... particularly my Grandparents.
Um Haleema,
"What is the purpose of this? To ensure that the children get raised as proper Muslims which is the father's responsibility according to Islam."
Who said that is the purpose? What are the sources - from the Quran?
There's nothing about the children's faith in the Quran. None of the verses about marriage say anything about the children's faith.
And the Quran doesn't say anything about custody either.
These are deductions & interpretations made by people like you, me & Red Tulips. They differ with time, place & tradition and this is why there are so many different rulings and interpretations on those issues.
Alluring,
"As a result they take his religion too, they're "documented" as muslims because they were born to a muslim father, period."
Again, where does the Quran say anything about 'documenting' faith? That's a secular practice that prevails in some Muslim countries.If you look at its history, you'll find that it started sometime during the Ottoman Empire i.e. about 200-300 years ago.
Where does the Quran say that you have to have a Muslim father to be Muslim? Or that you're considered Muslim if you have a Muslim father?
LoLou,
someone pasted a link and I don't want to repeat the thing again.
speaking of carmen, consider this, her bf wants to marry in a church, get the kids baptized and she raised no objections! Being a mother, wouldn't you want your the best for your kids i.e Islam?
Also, although it's permissible for a man to marry a woman of the book ( jew, christian), it's not encouraged.
The following hadeeth was narrated by Al-Bukhari (4802) and Muslim (1466) from Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) who said: “A woman may be married for four things: her wealth, her lineage, her beauty, and her religious commitment. Seek the one who is religiously-committed, may your hands be rubbed with dust (i.e., may you prosper).”
For a woman,
In Tirmidhi it says that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “If there comes to you one with whose religious commitment and character you are pleased, marry (your daughter or female relative under your care) to him, for if you do not do that, there will be tribulation in the land and corruption.”
See how important it is to marry a pious man, not the one who dates and engages in an illegal pre-marital relationship ( I guess we all know that is haraam)
Plus, marriage is invalid if nikah doesn't take place, nikah is the only way a Muslim can get married.
Moroever,
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “Any woman who gets married without her guardian’s permission, her marriage is invalid…” (Reported and classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi, 1021).
And isn't there someone 'wali' supposed to be present? Wali should be the girl's father, and if he is not well emotionally or refuses to marry her to someone who's good in character and piety, then the guardianship is passed on to someone else. In carmen's case, her parents will be absolutely just in refusing the bf.
It strikes me, how many of us here, asks for evidence from the Quran. If you're so hell-bent on following the ayahs, did ya'll overlook this one?
Qur'an 24:30-31
Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: ( I read of some husbands and men otherwise flirting)
That will make for greater purity for them:
And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; That they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof;
That they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty ( how many of us wear the hijab?)
Except to their husbands their fathers their husbands' fathers
Their sons their husbands' sons
Their brothers or their brothers' sons or
Their sisters' sons or their women or
The slaves whom their right hands possess or
Male servants free of physical needs or
Small children who have no sense of the shame of sex;
And that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments.
And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah that ye may attain Bliss.
Lastly, LouLou, for you to encourage carmen, is a sin.
“Help you one another in Al‑Birr and At‑Taqwa (virtue, righteousness and piety); but do not help one another in sin and transgression”
[al-Maa'idah 5:2]
I'm sorry for the long comment, couldn't help it.
Muslimah:
Sorry, but your comment is full of contradictions..
1- You said that this Hadeeth (“A woman may be married for four things: her wealth, her lineage, her beauty, and her religious commitment. Seek the one who is religiously-committed, may your hands be rubbed with dust") indicates that muslim men are not encouraged to marry women of the book. I don't see anything that supports that! There are Jews and Christians who are so religiously-committed. The Hadeeth didn't say "Seek a Muslim woman who is religiously-committed", but any woman with religious faith; it mainly referes to her belief in God and her good conduct. And the same applies to other Hadeeth told by Tirmidhi: "a man whose (any) religious commitment ..."
2- Your talk about the 'wali' in marriage.. Who told you that Carmen doesn't care to have her parents' blessing? The dilemma she's facing is because she wants to inform her parents. She doesn't wanna do anything secretive.
3- Then you said: "LouLou, for you to encourage carmen, is a sin"!
Why? May I ask?
The aya: “Help you one another in Al‑Birr and At‑Taqwa; but do not help one another in sin and transgression” only has the purpose of clarifying the meaning of cooperation in Islam. For instance, they can't form a terrorist group and kill people.
And why do you consider interfaith marriage to be a sin? It is a marriage, which means a sacred and legal bond made known to all society. What's the sin about that?
om Luji,
I appreciate your comment:-)
There are Jews and Christians who are so religiously-committed. The Hadeeth didn't say "Seek a Muslim woman who is religiously-committed", but any woman with religious faith; it mainly refers to her belief in God and her good conduct. And the same applies to other Hadeeth told by Tirmidhi: "a man whose (any) religious commitment ..."---> hm...but it's what the scholars interpret and they having been studied the whole of religion, know better than you and me.
2- Your talk about the 'wali' in marriage.. Who told you that Carmen doesn't care to have her parents' blessing? The dilemma she's facing is because she wants to inform her parents. She doesn't wanna do anything secretive.---> I'm aware of that. But her bf's family want a marriage in a church! And a Muslim caan't be married any other way than a nikah.
did you read the link someone pasted here?
Then you said: "LouLou, for you to encourage carmen, is a sin"!
Why? May I ask?---> Do you think Prophet(saw) would have encouraged a woman to marry a guy who breaks Allah's law? i.e engage in pre-marital relationships? don't you know there's something called as haya in Islam? Remember, Prophet(saw) said, if haya is lost, everything in religion is lost.
And why do you consider interfaith marriage to be a sin? It is a marriage, which means a sacred and legal bond made known to all society. What's the sin about that?---> Om Luji, there are bound to be difficulties in an interfaith marriage, more so if the man is a non-Muslim and the answer is in this link someone pasted here.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1156077759395
And here's one more hadeeth,
Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 142
"He who obeys me, obeys Allah, and he who disobeys me, disobeys Allah. He who obeys the chief, obeys me, and he who disobeys the chief, disobeys me. The Imam is like a shelter for whose safety the Muslims should fight and where they should seek protection. If the Imam orders people with righteousness and rules justly, then he will be rewarded for that, and if he does the opposite, he will be responsible for that."
All what scholars say is for your good, it's their duty to safeguard the religion and guide people with help of Allah.
Re carmen, I only feel sorry for her, marrying and raising 'baptized kids' while knowing the punishment of the disbelievers....
Moroever starting a 'marriage' by haraam ways i.e by dating ( we are ordered to lower our gaze in the quran, let alone talk and dance and date someone!!!) will be devoid of Allah's blessings, unless you repent.
I can only pray to Allah to guide the ummah and help s be steadfast in our emaan.
Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 204
LouLou,
Kids learn from their mom? Okay..
Allowing a Muslim man to marry a Christian or a Jewish woman, is an exceptional rule applied under special circumstances. And when a Muslim man marries a Christian or a Jewish woman, there is no problem, because he believes in all prophets, and all holy books. There will be no problem between him and his wife in this matter, especially that his religion -Islam- commands him to be fair with his wife even if she were Christian or Jewish. And any Muslim man going through such marriage should have strong belief in his faith, and should strongly abide by his religion.
The reason for forbidding a Muslim woman from marrying a non-Muslim, is that a Christian or a Jewish man believes only in his Prophet, and doesn’t believe in prophet Muhammad Salla Allah Allih Wa Salam or any of the other Prophets (blessing be upon them).
For example, when this Muslim woman, tries to teach her kids to love and respect all Prophets and believe in all of them, her non-Muslim husband will not agree, because he believes only in his Prophet. He will interfere in the way she raises her kids, and prevent her from raising them in an Islamic way. And here comes the real problem, because she will have only two options, whether she leaves the whole thing as it is, and does nothing about it -which will be an insult to her religion- or she argues about the matter, and this will sure lead to more marital problems.
On the other hand, there will be no such problems between a Muslim husband, and a non Muslim wife, because if this wife tried to teach her kids to love and believe in her Prophet, her Muslim husband will not refuse that because he already believes in her Prophet ( Jesus pbuh) and all Prophets( Noah,Adam etc). This is why Islam allows the marriage between Muslim man and non-Muslim woman, and forbids the marriage between Muslim woman, and non-Muslim man. Because Islam respects the marital relationship and wants to guarantee its stability, not because it respects men, and disrespects women …
For someone who truly believes in Islam will never want to raise his/her kids in any other religion( than Islam)
Another thing is anything that takes your emaan down, abandon it. There's NO obedience in the disobedience of Allah.
If your husband prevents you from doing your Islamic duties, then you're well within your rights to seek a divorce if things don't change for the better.
if yr a non-practicing Muslimah, i.e don't pray, fast, date, dance, music etc...then it's perfectly okay to marry a non-Muslim guy, cos' you couldn't care less if he prevents you from practicing your religion as you yourself aren't observant.
Does Sharia law differ from Muslim to Muslim or from Country to Country?
According to Sharia law, the father gets custody of the kids because the mother may re-marry and her new husband might not be nice to her children, does not have the responsibility to raise them Islamically (that is the father's responsibility) Also, a daughter would be living with someone who is not a mahram to her.
I'm not a shiekh, and i never used the word Quran in my reply and i didn't claim that it's written in the Quran either.
I stated my reply from a cultural point of view not from a religious one, so please leave the Quran out of this.
Now, in your opinion, what religion is documented in a child's birth certificate when they're born? or the child remains religion-less until he grows up and decides on a religion and/or is tutored by his mother? Do you think that it's possible for a muslim father to document his child as christian, after his mother?
Again their upbringing and what happens while they're gorwing up and what they decide upon is irrelative, my question is what are they documented as at birth and according to what?
I've got way too many things to do than to answer Muslimah's stupid accusations. All you're doing, Muslimah, is regurgitating the same things you hear from other people. If I hear one more time how a non-Muslim husband would deny his Muslim wife her faith I'm going to vomit. If I hear ONE MORE argument that a non-Muslim would not allow his children to believe in Mohamed, I'm going to poke someone's eye out. Muslimah, do you know ANYONE who's done that? ANYONE????? Stop taking everything that people say for the truth.
I never said I would baptize my kids. I said that the bf would want to, and I said I don't see what the big deal is with sprinkling some water on a kid, but I never said I was going to do it. And I never said we'd get married in a church. So relax with this.
Feeling sorry for me...please don't. You and your condascending comments do nothing for me.
And for your information, the imam who's willing to officiate this marriage is well-educated, genuine, the real deal. There are plenty of him out there, so don't worry so much much about the nikah. Me and all the other women who do this are going to be just fine.
i think it's obvious, the mother of course :)
that's why Shwaky said:
الأم مدرسة إذا أعددتها *** أعددت شعباً طيب الأعراق
والأم نبت إن تعاهده الحيا *** بالري أورق أيما إيراق
Muslima, that Hadith you quoted about anybody who disobeys a Chief or an Imam is disobeying God, is that considered VALID?
Muslims think a Chief or an Imam speak for God!? How can this be!?
Please tell me you were joking!
alluring,
Now, in your opinion, what religion is documented in a child's birth certificate when they're born?
Whatever religion the Mother puts there, in the United States.
Do you think that it's possible for a muslim father to document his child as christian, after his mother?
If a Muslim man father's a child in the United States, the religion of his child will be whatever the mother says it is. And she will get custody of the children 90% of the time, if they should divorce, as well. The mother has all the power when it comes to her children, in the US. I can't speak of other countries, but Sharia does not apply here.
Carmen,
LOL! Don't you think I got better things to do? I am not forcing you to do anything, and my comments were addressed to LouLou alone. At least she knows the right etiquette when it comes to discussing things.
All you're doing, Muslimah, is regurgitating the same things you hear from other people.---? and what about the verses from the Qur'an I stated? About the hijab and lowering the gaze and guarding modesty? Why don't you talk about this too? There are 4 schools of thought and all of them agree to this, a woman must wear hijab and doing all this crap what you do, clubbing, dating, is strictly haram.
And the imams who say this are all "well-educated, genuine, the real deal.".
If I hear one more time how a non-Muslim husband would deny his Muslim wife her faith I'm going to vomit. If I hear ONE MORE argument that a non-Muslim would not allow his children to believe in Mohamed,---> Will you bother saying saw or pbuh?
I'm going to poke someone's eye out. Muslimah, do you know ANYONE who's done that? ANYONE????? Stop taking everything that people say for the truth.--->Well, all will seem 'rosy now'. when you get married, you'll realize, that person won't be your bf, he'll be your husband, with you who have eat, sleep,and live everyday. Keep blogging after you get married, and keep us informend of the developments.
I never said I would baptize my kids. I said that the bf would want to, and I said I don't see what the big deal is with sprinkling some water on a kid, but I never said I was going to do it. And I never said we'd get married in a church. So relax with this.---> Okay, good. I remember reading something like that in some post of yours.
And for your information, the imam who's willing to officiate this marriage is well-educated, genuine, the real deal.---? Amongst the signs of the Day of Judgement is, 'jahil people' will start giving fatawas. If this imam says there's nothing wrong in having a bf, he is a person who has no knowledge.
For the back and forth exchange, it's over at my end. Good Luck.
Wasalam
It was a good point somebody made about the problems of divorce and the welfare of the children. However, in my experience (my father has been married 5 times) it is the children who treat their step-parents poorly, not the step-parents who treat the children poorly.
I do think it is easier divorced man with children living with him to get re-married, than for a woman, though. That's a good point.
But suppose he doesn't get re-married? Is he better able to care for his children, than the mother is? I don't think so!
Programmer Craig,
Muslims think a Chief or an Imam speak for God!? How can this be!?--> not speak, but convey the msg.
Please tell me you were joking!---> Oh please, this is ISLAM, I wont make things up my own for heaven's sake!
Craig,
I think you are talking about what I had said about the re-marriage issue. The only reason I brought that up was to show what Islam (if you want to consider Sharia Laws as truly Islamic)says about it because I think that that shows perfectly how they feel that the man is the one with the authority over the religion of the children.
Are there any Muslims out there that think as I do, that much of Sharia is in contradiction with Islam considering that the Koran tells you to think and learn for yourself?
And what about the ahadith? Should they really be necessary if the Koran was so perfect and all encompasing and as we don't live in the 7th century? Is it really important to know which hand to eat with? And does it apply to those of us who were raised to eat with forks and knives?
Alluring,
In the United States there isn't even a place anywhere on the birth certificate related to religion.
Muslimah,
Thank you for the free sermons. Very kind of you to drop by and spend your precious time showing us errant souls how to repent from our sins. :)
Um Haleema,
"Does Sharia law differ from Muslim to Muslim or from Country to Country?"
Of course it does. Shariah rulings are supposed to be based on 3 sources:
1) The Quran
2) The Sunna
3) The consensus of the community.(Tradition, politics etc...)
All Muslims agree on the first one but differ on the rest.
And yes, laws on things like custody do differ a lot from one Muslim country to the next - even though they all refer family law to Sharia courts.
As to differing with time, I am always amused by people who think that whatever they were taught was Islam - is the carved-in-stone version that has existed since the Prophet.
A simple reading of the history of Islamic sects & their theological differences would show that throughout the history of Islam, hundreds of different interpretations and schools of thought have risen or fallen largely for political reasons.
The interpretation that dominates today is the Wahabi one. Why? Because it has the power of Saudi petro-dollars behind it. This particular interpretation is less 200 years old.
Throughout the history of Islam, hundreds of such sects & schools of thought have risen and fallen - not because they were necessarily better or worse than what we have today - but because their followers weren't powerful or wealthy or influential enough.
I agree with om luji in that the problem with religious education in the Muslim world today is that this aspect is absent. We are not taught our real history. We are not taught about the failings of our predecessors, their vulnerabilities, their search for truth. We're not told that many of their practices were put in place for pragmatic reasons that were relevant in their time but may no longer be relevant in ours. And we're not given a chance to judge their decisions for ourselves and come to our own conclusions. We're handed everything down as though it were sacred & unchangeable.
We're taught that there is only one way and we have to follow it. The irony is that the Quran cautioned against this when it addressed the Quraishite idolators and chided them for saying "haza ma wajadna 3laihi aba'ana"(That is what we found our ancestors doing) and refusing to open the their hearts and minds to the truth.
Alluring,
"I stated my reply from a cultural point of view not from a religious one, so please leave the Quran out of this."
Yes but I was talking about the Quran. A lot of people were saying this or that was in the Quran about custody or children's faith or a lot of other issues I happened to know the Quran never addressed. So I was confused.
If your argument is that God doesn't want us to marry non-Muslim men because He is worried about what will be written on our children's ID cards in those messed-up countries which write people's religion on their ID cards in the first place, then I disagree because I simply don't see God asking to see people's ID before He accepts them as believers.
If your argument is that such a marriage is unacceptable culturally, then I agree. And I stated in Carmen's blog that this is the reason why I personally wouldn't go for an interfaith marriage.
However, I think this is wrong and I hope that if I ever have children, such archaic traditions would have disappeared so my children wouldn't have to find themselves in Carmen's position one day.
We are allowed to question culture and point out why we disagree with it and think it should change aren't we?
LouLou,
Thank you for the free sermons. Very kind of you to drop by and spend your precious time showing us errant souls how to repent from our sins. :)---> I guess this is the rpely people give when they don't know how to answer back. Thank You very much yourself!
Carmen,
My duty as a Muslim was to pass this msg, not to force it down your throat, in the end it's your life, your choice. On the Day of Judgment, Allah won't ask me my opinion about your or vice-versa.
To you your religion and to me mine.
And finally, you wrote:
I hear one more time how a non-Muslim husband would deny his Muslim wife her faith I'm going to vomit---> So you mean, you mean dating and clubbing and wearing disgusting clothes is your way of practicing faith? LOL. If your a practicing Muslim, I am the Messiah. =))
Go ahead and do just as you like. You'll be accountable for your own actions.
And this goes for you too LouLou.
wasalam, I got better things to do than discuss things with a bunch of 'Muslims' who are so ignorant of their own religion.
muslimah,
"I guess this is the rpely people give when they don't know how to answer back."
No this is the reply people give back when they're mind-numbingly bored with the way you talk down to them and present your opinions, thoughts and understanding as though you have the absolute truth on your side.
You will not get very many good responses in debates in general if you persist in your arrogance and in treating your opponents as though they're the accused and you're the all-wise, all-knowing judge of right or wrong. Neither I nor anyone here are under any obligation to defend or justify ourselves to you.
As important as I am sure you feel you are, to us, you're nothing more than a random commentator on the internet. So we only have to give you any attention IF WE WANT TO. And it's up to YOU to make us want to. So far, you're doing a lousy job of that.
LouLou,
No this is the reply people give back when they're mind-numbingly bored with the way you talk down to them and present your opinions,---> Yeah, sure, when I write down the ayahs from the Qur'an it'll be boring, you'd rather read some novel or someone singing the blues.
You will not get very many good responses in debates in general if you persist in your arrogance and in treating your opponents as though they're the accused and you're the all-wise, all-knowing judge of right or wrong.---> I;m not interested in getting any response.
Neither I nor anyone here are under any obligation to defend or justify ourselves to you.---> Neither did I ask you to. I wonder how you would justify yourself to Allah, when you plainly refuse the ayah on hijab and lowering the gaze.
So we only have to give you any attention IF WE WANT TO. And it's up to YOU to make us want to. So far, you're doing a lousy job of that.---> I'm not doing anything you think I am. Gaining your attention will be the last thing I will wish for!
Muslimah,
"Yeah, sure, when I write down the ayahs from the Qur'an it'll be boring, you'd rather read some novel or someone singing the blues."
Hiding behind the Quran? So every single word you've written here has been Quran?
Well I can't say it surprises me that someone like you would believe that everything she says is Quran. However, I own a copy of the Quran thank you very much. I know it's hard for you to accept but you're not the only source of Quran in the world and is and I don't need to put up with you in order to have access to it.
"I;m not interested in getting any response."
So you're talking to yourself? Well, that's not necessarily bad. It can be very therapeutic.
"I wonder how you would justify yourself to Allah, when you plainly refuse the ayah on hijab and lowering the gaze."
Let me worry about how I will justify myself to Allah.
"Gaining your attention will be the last thing I will wish for!"
If you didn't want attention you wouldn't say something like this:
"I guess this is the rpely people give when they don't know how to answer back."
That's childish and provocative and a plea for attention. If you didn't want attention, you would have simply accepted that I wasn't interested in your preaching. It is my decision what I want to accept after all.
I think in things such as religion/faith, children follow the environment they are in. If they are more with mother then they more likely will be influenced by her, alternatively with environment outside the family. My dad is atheist and my mother believes in Allah. I am living in country tolerant to all religious, but islam prevails. I don’t claim to be specialist in religion, I think environment is the key, that was my opinion.
Cheers,
Puppy.
Marying a muslim man to a non muslim woman (christian or jewish ) happneded with the prophet(PBUH). But we NEVER heared of such an incidence in the prophet's (PBUH)days and his companions that such an incidence happened that a Muslim woman married a jewish or christian man.
There is a verse in Quran , surat el- maeeda,in verse 5
" Made lawful to you this day are At-Tayyibat (all kinds of Halal (lawful )foods, which Allah has made lawful (meat of slaughtered eatable animals, milk products, fats, vegetables and fruits). The food (slaughtered cattle, eatable animals) of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) is lawful to you and yours is lawful to them. (Lawful to you in marriage) are chaste women from the believers and chaste women from those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians )before your time when you have given their due Mahr(bridal- money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), desiring chstity (i.e. taking them to legal wedlock) not committing illegal sexual intercourse, nor taking them as girl-friends. And whosoever disbelieves in Faith (i.e in the Oneness of Allah and in all the other articles of Faith i.e. His (Allah's) Angels, His Holy Books, His Messengers, the Day of Resurrection and AL-Qadar (Divine Preordainments), then fruitless is his work; and in the Hereafter he will be among the loosers".
There is nothing in Quran that says that a Muslim women can marry men of other religon than Islam.
Anyway, to know if it is permissible (Halal) or not. You can ask sheikh or iman or a religon scholar from those whom you trust in their opinions.
So you mean, you mean dating and clubbing and wearing disgusting clothes is your way of practicing faith? LOL. If your a practicing Muslim, I am the Messiah. =))
Go ahead and do just as you like. You'll be accountable for your own actions.
And what do you think the Messiah would say about what you are doing here, Muslima? Do you want scriptural quotes? You seem to be fond of those.
Muslimah,
Neither did I ask you to. I wonder how you would justify yourself to Allah, when you plainly refuse the ayah on hijab and lowering the gaze.
Are you perfect? You are not a sinner?
You have sinned right here in this thread. Telling lies (with malicious intent) is grievous sin.
Book of Revelation 22:12-15
Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
Nothing about hijab and lowering gaze in there, is there? You commit a great sin and condemn others for small ones.
By the way, the "great sin" I speak of, is misusing religion in order to do other people harm. Claiming that a Chief or an Imam speaks infallibly for God doesn't do you much service either. That's blasphemy.
Mathew 25:33-36,41-43,45-46
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
roora,
"There is nothing in Quran that says that a Muslim women can marry men of other religon than Islam."
There is nothing in the Quran that says that you can walk down the street and turn left so does this mean that when you walk down the street it's haram to turn left?
The area of halal things is much, much bigger than haram things so the Quran mentions ALL the haram things but not all the halal things. We are supposed to assume that if something is not mentioned as haram then it's halal by default.
Nowhere in the Quran does it say that Muslims - men or women - cannot marry other believers(Jews and Christians).
"Anyway, to know if it is permissible (Halal) or not. You can ask sheikh or iman or a religon scholar from those whom you trust in their opinions."
Ya habibti, all this asking sheikhs and scholars is starting to worry me. Why? The Quran is there. So is the Sunna & the Seerah. If you want to learn about qiyas, isti7san, ijma3 & other tools of fiqh, the books are there. Why depend on other people to do research for you? Why not do your own?
These 'sheikhs' you mention, do you know who is paying their salary? Or who was funding the school they were educated in? How do you know they are telling you the truth 'liwaghillah'?How do you know they are really as knowledgeable as they claim?
Already, one of the Muslim commentators here has managed to give a non-Muslim like Programmer Craig the impression that Muslims believe Sheikhs and Imams are infallible & holy & speak for God.
The obvious truth is that Muslims don't believe anyone other than Allah is infallible. Even the Prophet (pbuh) made mistakes & was given a Quranic reprimand right here.
The Prophet himself said:
"I am no more than a man; when I order you anything respecting religion, receive it; and when I order you anything about the affairs of the world, then I am nothing more than a man."
So the Prophet never claimed to be infallible or to know everything, how can you trust these Sheikhs or Imams who claim they do? Didn't the Prophet say:"The believer's heart is his guide?" And didn't he say:"Istafti qalbak wa in aftawok"?(Search for truth in your heart inspite of the fatwas(rulings) of others)?
When did Islam turn into medeival Catholicism with a 'professional' clergy and a priesthood who have a monopoly on God and the truth and who sell Salvation to the rest of us in exchange for their salaries?
Loulou,
you are saying that we take what is permissibble or not from Quran and sunnah right!
So we know what is permissible in such sensitive issues like interfaith marriage from that.
We knew that it is acceptable for a muslim man to marry a scripture woman from the incidence that happened with the prophet (PBUH) and from this verse as well.
If it was ok, for a muslim woman to marry a non muslim man, it would of happen in the prophet 's days or mentioned in Quran.
Like for example the adoption issue, as happened with Zaid Ibn Haritha ... to state the fact that it is halal to marry from the ex wife of the adopted son.
The reason I am saying to take opionions from religious scholars of whom we trust , because we dont know the Fiqh properly ya loulou. Or the science of religon. Maybe there was a certain incidence that happened in the prophet's days or in his companions or a hadith that we dont know that shows whether it is halal or haram
We are not aware of every incidence or hadith. At least I dont. There are the 4 big scholars (a2ema) from we take from their opinions and people trust. YOu can do your research tab3an. But I believe that this is science as other things.
Men are the maintainers and the supporters in the marital relation right? so If he himself is of other religon, how this would effect the house? I mean if a woman wants to do priglimage or umrah and he doesnt want or not encouraged .. would she be able to do ? If she wants to wear veil? would he agree? If she prays and fasts and Ramadan and therefore no physical contact, would he understand?
But if we turned the other side, do you think women normally will effect men's behavior as men do with women.
LouLou,
Firstly, I apologize for coming up rude to you, that wasn't my intention.
Already, one of the Muslim commentators here has managed to give a non-Muslim like Programmer Craig the impression that Muslims believe Sheikhs and Imams are infallible & holy & speak for God.---> LouLou, that was a hadeeth and a sahih one. I second roora's comment on the imams, they are more versed in the fiqh than us.
The following is the verse.
Allah also says: “O ye who believe, when there come to you believing women refugees, examine(and test) them : Allah knows best as to their faith: if ye ascertain that they are believers, then send them not back to the unbelievers, They are not lawful(wives) for the unbelievers, nor are the (unbelievers) lawful (husbands) for them”. [Sûrah al-Mumtahanah (60): 10]
This verse is general for all those who do not believe in Islam.
I agree that we have the Qur'an, sunnah, and the hadeeth to look into. Our Prophet(saw)himself said , "as long as you stick to the Qur'an and the sunnah, you shall never go astray".
Programmer Craig, I lied? Oh please, this is the verse of Hijab.
“And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear therof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons, their husbands’ sons, their brothers, or their brothers’ sons or their sisters’ sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.” (Quran 24:31).
Muslimah,
Can you point out where the word hijab appears in the verse you quoted? And can you also tell us what this phrase 'that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear thereof' means to you?
roora,
"There are the 4 big scholars (a2ema) from we take from their opinions and people trust."
But the sheikhs and Imams you were talking about are not the 4 ai'ima are they? The sheikhs who live today are people who read the 4 ai'ima and tell you what is in the books.
"The reason I am saying to take opionions from religious scholars of whom we trust , because we dont know the Fiqh properly ya loulou. Or the science of religon."
I agree that we don't. Not as much as we should. But is that a good thing? Is it good that all religious knowledge should be left in the hands of a small minority of people who get paid for it?
In the early Islamic society, there was no such thing as a 'sheikh'. Every community chose their Imam - whose job was to lead the prayers - not to issue fatwas. The Imam was not paid for this. He had his own job and source of income and he led the prayers as a volunteer 'liwaghillah'.
Everyone considered it their job to inform themselves about religion and how to apply it in their personal issues so anyone who tried to issue a wrong fatwa would have been easily discovered and corrected. For very major disputes between people, they went to the 'Qadi'(Judge). But for everyday matters, there were no 'professional muftis'.
This situation we have today is very far from the Islamic ideal, in my opinion. It creates the danger of over-dependency on these individuals to the point where some people consider them more important than the Prophet or God. And can you imagine how much damage a corrupt or ignorant Imam could do when the public is so uninformed? Then one person's mistake would affect not only him but a whole country or maybe the whole Umma because so many people listen to him without question.
Programmer Craig and Um Haleema,
Thank you for the info but i already know all this, i'm born to an American father and i live in the US, on the other hand my mother is Egyptian so i know how things work in Egypt and some arab countries and that's where i got the info i stated from.
Loulou,
My argument has nothing to do with either point you raised, my argument was some plain and simple questions; far from interfaith marriages, carmen's case, the Quran or any other point raised here, you just read too much between the lines or were caught in the heat of the other arguments :)
All i wanted to know was where you stand from those questions and based on what, that's it.
You've been tagged.
http://omluji.blogspot.com/2007/02/five-things-you-dont-know-about-me.html
Lou Lou,
With all due respect :
أجمع أئمة المسلمين كلهم ـ لم يشذ عنهم أحد ـ على أن ما عدا الوجه و الكفين من المرأة داخل في وجوب الستر أمام الأجانب . قال الجزيري في كتابه الفقه على المذاهب الأربعة ج 5 / ص 54 : ( عورة المرأة عند الشافعية و الحنابلة جميع بدنها ، ولا يصح لها أن تكشف أي جزء من جسدها أمام الرجال الأجانب ، إلا إذا دعت لذلك ضرورة كالطبيب المعالج ، و الخاطب للزواج ، و الشهادة أمام القضاء ، و المعاملة في حالة البيع و الشراء ، فيجوز أن تكشف وجهها و كفيها . و عورة المرأة عند الحنفية والمالكية جميع بدن المرأة إلا الوجه و الكفين ، فيباح للمرأة أن تكشف وجهها و كفيها في الطرقات ، و أمام الرجال الأجانب . و لكنهم قيدوا هذه الإباحة بشرط أمن الفتنة . أما إذا كان كشف الوجه و اليدين يثير الفتنة لجمالها الطبيعي، أو لما فيهما من الزينة كالأصباغ و المساحيق التي توضع عادة للتجمل أنواع الحلي فإنه يجب سترهما ) . و كذا ورد في كتاب الفقه الإسلامي وأدلته للدكتور وهبة الزحيلي ج 1 / ص 585
This shows that all the four imams agreed on what a womans 3ora is and I amn't one to debate it I don't know better, but do you? have you studied religion this extensively? It is your personal choice to show your hair and if you are right you aren't sinning if you are wrong you are. For those who wear Hijab if it is wrong they will be rewarded for their extra faith in God and their willingness to be close to him by staying on the safe side. As I'm sure you know their are a lot of things in Islam that are debatable even though I don't see how this is, but in those cases you get to choose and usually those who opt for the hardest choices are the most rewarded?
So my advice to you is even if you are convinced don't you think it would be wiser to only be held accountable for your own sins if your personal non-theologically based opinion turns out to be wrong, rather than being held accountable for the sins of all the people who may follow your opinions?
no_name,
"So my advice to you is even if you are convinced don't you think it would be wiser to only be held accountable for your own sins if your personal non-theologically based opinion turns out to be wrong, rather than being held accountable for the sins of all the people who may follow your opinions?"
So we should never have debates or express our opinions because we might be wrong and then if we are we will be held accountable for those who follow us?
I don't think I am so important that anyone will follow my opinion just because it's my opinion. When I hear an opinion, I ask for reasons. When I listen to the reasons I decide for myself if they're good enough. In either case, I don't hold the person who expressed the opinion responsible for my final decision. I expect others to treat me the same way.
Otherwise all debate will be stifled. It would be the end of Ijtihad. A religion that is incapable of withstanding free & open debate and whose followers are afraid to express their doubts or questions is a dying religion. It's not a religion that would have survived for 1500 years.
A religion that is incapable of withstanding free & open debate and whose followers are afraid to express their doubts or questions is a dying religion. It's not a religion that would have survived for 1500 years.
THAT is something that I wholeheartedly agree with you on, LouLou. The rest, as they say, is commentary.
i believe it's the "legal" religion that people are worried about. throughout Arab history and through to this very day, religion is something that is officially designated, recognized by the government, and regulated by it. Sadly, children's birth certificates mention their religion and that, according to the law of most Arab and Muslim countries, is the religion of their father. this government acts proceeds to have repercussions for the rest of their lives.
in countries where a person's religion is not recognized by the state, it makes no sense to talk of compulsory "following" the father. kids choose what they believe in eventually like loulou said.
I was born into Christian family and, in my case, it was definitely my mother that had the most effect on my religious learning. In fact, it was her teachings about the importance of tolerance that made me feel comfortable enough to begin exploring Islam as a teenager even though she never has. She always showed a great appreciation for those whose beliefs taught them to seek truth, value life, et cetera.
When my father left Christianity and never really joined any particular faith after that, my brothers and I could have easily decided to take the easier route and abandoned religion as well, EXCEPT my mother's faith in God made us WANT to go the extra steps and resist many of the pressures of the world.
So, I think that perhaps people shouldn't assume that children will just blindly follow whatever their father says but will--when taught to have the proper respect for God--choose according to how God leads them.
For the record, I do believe that multi-faith marriages can be a good thing. In my case, my husband never pushed me to join his faith (a different Christian school of thought from the one I was raised with). He has never said one thing to my child (his step-daughter) to try and get her to do anything that went against my religious beliefs even though his were quite different from mine. In the denomination I was born into, we were taught that we should not even marry those who belonged to other Christian schools of thought for many of the same reasons as some Muslims use to try and discourage inter-faith marriages:
1. the other parent would try to lead the children away from the true faith
2. the differently-believing spouse would try to stop the true believer from carrying out all of God's requirements as interpreted by the congregation leaders, of course.
3. the couple would argue more and have a much harder time getting along because of the differences in religion.
However, none of these proved to be true. We both agreed ahead of time that if we found there was some religious principle we wished the other one believed in, we would try to live that principle so that our behavior would serve as an example for why this principle was worth following.
Now, these many years later, I think we have the best of both worlds. His patience and kindness and love has motivated me to work on not being so dogmatic when sharing my views. And my inquisitiveness has contributed to his willingness to find answers from the holy books that God has provided us with instead of just believing in whatever some person/priest/pastor/philosopher says is true.
Our daughter is even more religiously-inclined than either of us are. Thanks be to God that it is very rare that we have to seriously discipline her. When she was in pre-school, we found out from her teacher that when our daughter prayed before eating her lunch, the other children would also say amen as if my daughter were leading the group in prayer! We were so surprised because we didn't even know that she was old enough to begin praying without having to be told to do so. She was not even five years old yet! It made me and her father very happy to find out that she was remembering her faith even when we were not around. To me, that is evidence that our approach can not have been the disaster-in-waiting that some thought it would be.
Bint,
Long time no see!
Anyway, all that you said sounds great, and also is not that relevant to this discussion. The question was whether the Koran holds that religion is inherited by the father or mother, not who has the bigger influence.
For a very long (though very interesting) discussion on this topic that merges into a general discussion of Islam, feel free to read this.
Cheers,
Red Tulips
LouLou:
I am interested in what you think about my analysis as to why there is modern day terrorism:
read here
In the end, I think we sort of reached a strange understanding, as you will see I noted.
All the best,
Red Tulips
After 52 comments ( some very out of topic at times :P) I doubt anyone will read mine, still I'll try and answer Loulou's original question .
Loulou, both my parents are Muslim and I don't think anyone tried to influence me at all. I was the one who years later asked how to pray and other stuff. However, I do agree that it is the mother who generally influences the children in a family, I've seen that a lot.
In my family I'm lucky ( alhamdillah) to have two role models mum & dad :)
As for my HO about Carmen, please do whatever you want sweetie and all the best wishes. Each one of us has to make a choice and we shall never know unless we do.
Big hugs and happy valentine to you all on Loulou's blog here x0
I think it all depends on who spends more time with the kids and how religious each parent is.. Generally, the more religious parent will have a larger influence on the kid.. On the most part I think the mother plays a larger role since she is usually the one who shapes up the kids personality since she is there all the time..
Overall, I think parents from different religions should expose kids to both religions allowing them to develop their own belief's and opinions.. Coz all religions do follow the same core concepts..
Post a Comment
<< Home